Transcript made by: Sai Nidhi Mataji and Shrushthi Nidhi Mataji
Gour Govinda Swami: That sādhu is there, Sanātana Goswāmi. Go to beg his mercy. If you get his mercy, this boat of yours will be moved. "Where is he?" "Oh, he may be sitting somewhere under some tree in the jungle of Vṛndāvan. You go and you can meet him." So he came, fortunately met him, paid obeisances, and says, "Oh, Mahārāj, I am such a distressed person. My boat is caught in the Yamunā River sand. I tried my best and engaged many men to push, but I failed. So I have come to you. Please help me."
"What shall I do? What should I do? Shall I go and push your boat? What should I do? Tell Him! Tell Him!" Pointing out Madan Gopāl. "Go, go, go, tell Him!" Pointing at Madan Gopāl. "Go tell Him." Then he went to Madan Gopāl and prayed with obeisances, to Madan Gopāl: "Please shower mercy on me. This time, whatever profit I'll get, I'll give everything to You. Everything to You, I will give. Please show Your mercy on me and let my boat be pushed out so that I can go on. Let me go on with my trade."
So, miraculously, in the evening, a violent windstorm came. Such a terrible storm, violent wind blew and pushed it out. His boat was pushed out. (laughs) The will of Madan Gopāl. Then he went out and earned so much profit; throughout his lifetime, he had not earned such money. Such profit he got! Then he came back and gave everything. And such a nice temple as you now see, that Madan Mohan temple is there. He built that temple. He made all opulent arrangements, and he became a devotee there, a disciple. Devotee. He surrendered. He gave up his profession, everything. Surrendered completely. Stayed there. Made such a thing for Madan Gopāl. He did it. His will. If you are really longing, crying in your heart, "What can I do? I want to serve, I want to offer such nice offerings, opulent offerings, but I couldn't do it because I have no money and I am a poor man," He can do it. Why face such trouble? (laughs)
Devotee: Is it, is it that sometimes that Kṛṣṇa may withhold money just to increase the distress in the heart of the devotee to increase his—
Gour Govinda Swami: No, it is to see how you are longing, how you are really, really crying for My service. He will test you. He tests you. Yes. And when the money comes, it's Kṛṣṇa's money. It must be accounted for to the pie. To the pie! We say pie, uh? To the cent, or what do you say? Cent. It should be spent for Kṛṣṇa's service. Don't utilize even one cent for your own purpose. But if you utilize it for your own sense gratification, that will immediately leave you.
I heard that. In New York, I heard, "Yes, much money is coming, but these people are, what do you say, extravagantly spending, not keeping proper account." So, they face difficulty. I heard such a thing. Those who are members of their council—what is that? Management council—they tell me these things. Therefore, they face such trouble. If you can't keep proper account... Prabhupāda stressed on it. Proper accounts should be kept. Not even a single pie should be extravagantly spent or misutilized. No.
So many stories are there. Once Prabhupād was in Vṛndāvan. One letter had to be sent to Mathurā. So, the letter was written, and Prabhupād signed it. Then one devotee was going to send it through registered mail. Then Prabhupād called him: "All right. What will be the cost, the postal charges to send this letter through registered mail? And what will you spend if you run to Mathurā and do hand delivery? What will be your expense? Give me the account!" (hands clapping) Whichever is lesser, that will be done. He is so particular. So particular! Not a single pie should be misutilized. You see.
Sometimes in the dead of night, he'll call, "Hey, bring your account. I have to see if it is properly maintained or not. Is it maintained up-to-date or not?" Then he would say all transactions should be made through the bank. Through the bank! Any money that comes should go to the bank. What if you want to spend? Withdraw it from the bank, no directly spending cash. No. This is the proper source. But we are not doing such a thing. Any cash that comes, you put it in your pocket. Yes! You put it in your pocket. Therefore, it should be either bank draft or check, so we must go to the bank. Instead, when cash comes, you put it in the pocket first. You know, such a thing is going on.
I went to Denver, America. There is not a room there for me. There's no room for me to stay. They gave one room to me in the brahmacārī apartment where brahmacārīs are staying. They gave me one room there, but how can I stay there? No cot. I cannot sleep on the ground. And I cannot use this common toilet. One toilet is there. The seat is broken. When you sit on it, the crack is there. That's all. It's like this. Oh, Bābā, what is this? No room here? Why don't you repair it? They say they are facing monetary trouble, that's all. Facing monetary trouble, no money.
Then fortunately, the president of that temple was gone to New York. His quarters were vacant, so they made such an arrangement that I went that way. So nice, like palatial, like a king's quarters! The president stays in a king's quarters, but here is no room, you see. Karmarupa Prabhu. (laughs) Utilize money in what way? You know, so nice. (laughs) Palatial building! One devotee is there also. He is a disciple of Jayapatākā Mahārāj. His name I forgot—what is that? Maheś Patapavan. He went to his quarters and he said his quarters are also like this. A gṛhastha, he is a gṛhastha. Palatial building! This was nice, but in the temple, no room. (laughs) You see? So, we must face monetary trouble. That means that we are not utilizing Lakṣmī for Mādhava Sevā, the Lord's service. We are utilizing Lakṣmī for our own service.
As my Guru Mahārāj came, he stayed in this house for 17 days. I arranged a government guest house, but he didn't go. He didn't go. He taught us. A government guest house means I have to pay money, you see? So he didn't go there. He said, "No, I'll stay here." He stayed here 17 days. Continuously for 17 days! Nothing fancy. He said, "Only bring this electricity base." It was already brought. And one pipeline for water. I had set up a place for passing stool, this toilet there, for sitting. But he said, "I couldn't sit," as I cannot sit now for similar reasons. We were all going outside to pass stool, because it was all vacant. No need for a toilet, you go out and pass stool. Yes, all were going out; it was all vacant. But he said, "I can't sit. A commode is required." So immediately I brought a commode and set it up. And I enclosed all these things from this end to that end so nobody would come inside with their water cans.
Devotee: Cans.
Gour Govinda Swami: With bamboo mats and cloths, yes. Only Prabhupāda removed it. And he stayed there, because I had no money. But the best I could do, I did. And he stayed here for 17 days, you see? Yeah, he is so particular. There is no question of money; it's Kṛṣṇa's money. It should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's service. He is very particular. But now, when it comes, people utilize it for their own comfort. Then you must face trouble.
And that I saw in America. America is such a wealthy country, yet they have no room when a guest comes to stay. No guest room, nothing! You see? Nothing. (laughs) You come to us, we are so poor. You come to Bhubaneshwar; I will give you a nice room with an attached toilet. But there you cannot live. And I told them, "You come to Bhubaneshwar. We are very poor. Odisha is a poor state, but I will give you one room with an attached toilet. Yes!" But here in America, you cannot get one. You see? Such a wealthy country, America. (laughs) That night, as I was telling, I went to that farm.
Devotee: Yeah, you did.
Gour Govinda Swami: That farm. Anyhow, we reached there at 12:00 at night.
Devotee: Yes.
Gour Govinda Swami: But I could not use that toilet, you see. Immediately, those devotees, that night, got a wooden chair and made a hole in it. Anyhow, I used it. Yes, I spent one night there.
Devotee: Yes
Gour Govinda Swami: [..]
Prabhupād said, "No, no, go and bring a commode, I can’t sit." Immediately I bought a commode and set it up there. What to do? Just the minimum requirement, no more. (laughs) They say, "What prasād will you eat?" I eat very simple: some rice and dalma, yes. Rice, dalma, that's it. My favorite is dalma and some rice. Yes, that's enough. No opulent prasād, you see? I am satisfied. (laughs) That is why you face many difficulties. Yes.
Devotee: We want to use Lakṣmī in our service, rather than
Gour Govinda Swami: rather than Mādhava's service, yes, Kṛṣṇa's service, yes.
Devotee: Like the mentality of Rāvaṇa. It's like the mentality of Rāvaṇa.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.
Devotee: Tried to take Sītā away from Rām.
Gour Govinda Swami: From Rām, yes. Take Lakṣmī from the Lord. Sītā is Lakṣmī, the energy of the Lord. So, Rāvaṇa wanted to make the Lord without energy. To take out the energy from the Lord for his own enjoyment. But how can he do so? He couldn't do so. How? Energy and the energetic source is inseparable. How can you separate energy from the energetic? That is demoniac mentality.
Rāvaṇa once wanted to make the Lord without energy, but he couldn't. He cannot do it. He was cheated! He took Māyā Sītā, not the real Sītā. When this illusory deer came—the golden deer—he was a demon, Mārīca. He just wandered there as an illusory golden deer. And Sītā developed greed for it and told her husband, "Please, get me that deer." You see? "Get me that deer." Hmm? Then Lord Rām asked, "What will you do with it?" "Ah, it's a nice deer. I'll keep it and we'll take it to Ayodhyā and I'll give it as a presentation to Bharat."
Lord Rām said, "All right," so Lord Rām went out. Because He is an ideal husband. Didn't Lord Rām know that it was an illusory deer? Didn't He know? He knew, but why run behind it? Because He is an ideal husband. He is ideal in all respects. He has come to set up idealism and teach it to all mankind. He is very strict and never transgresses Vedic rules, regulations, or etiquette, never. Maryādā Puruṣottama. He's known as Maryādā Puruṣottama. So, He ran. (laughs) And that illusory deer, a demon whom Rāvaṇa had sent, shouted, "Trayyī Lakṣmaṇa, Trayyī Lakṣmaṇa!" Hmm? "Lakṣmaṇa, oh, Lakṣmaṇa! Please come and protect me!" That was in the voice of Lord Rām, as if Rām was crying and shouting.
Sītā Devī could hear this thing, but Lakṣmaṇa was guarding there. Rām had said, "You stay here. I am going; don't leave Sītā Devī." Because in the jungle, many dangers are there, demons are there. He said, "Don't leave." Yes, that is an elder brother's order; he is carrying it out as a faithful servant. But Sītā Devī heard it and said, "Don't you hear, Lakṣmaṇa? My husband is calling you. Go!" He said, "No! This is not the calling of Lord Rām. It is an illusory calling. Nobody could create any dangerous situation for Lord Rām." He will never be in danger. But such is woman's nature. Sītā Devī said, "Oh, you hope that when My husband is in danger, He will die, and then you will get Me and enjoy Me!" She thought he had a thought like this, and she said it in such a harsh, penetrating way, like arrows. Vākya-bāṇa. The words were like arrows, very painful. "Oh, what is this?" So, Lakṣmaṇa left. Thinking, "All right, what shall I do?" Then, with his bow, he marked a line there and said, "Please don't cross this line. Remain always inside this line. Don't cross this line, otherwise danger will be there."
So then Rāvaṇa came in the guise of a monk. And he asked for alms, bhikṣā. They had nothing there, except Sītā Devī had some fruits. She said, "All right, these fruits are there, I'll give them to you. Please come here to the doorstep and I'll give them to you. I cannot get out." And when Rāvaṇa came and was about to cross this line, there was fire. So, Rāvaṇa couldn't come near. He couldn't cross. There was a platform under a tree, so he sat down and said, "Oh, I am a monk, you are a gṛhastha. Your duty is to come to me, serve me, and give me all of this sevā, all comforts, everything: nice place to sit, nice food to eat, everything."
But when Sītā Devī crossed that line, there was fire. So, the Fire God kept Sītā, the real Sītā, and handed over illusory Sītā to Rāvaṇa. Because the demon Rāvaṇa cannot touch the Lord's energy. How can a demon touch it? No, he cannot touch. So, Rāvaṇa was cheated. The Fire God delivered the illusory Sītā to Rāvaṇa, you see.
So, when Rām went to Laṅkā and killed Rāvaṇa and all the demons to rescue Sītā, that was a husband's duty as an ideal husband. If you accept a wife, you have to cry for her. Wife has so many demands; as an ideal husband, you have to fulfill the demands, like when Sītā said, "Get that golden deer." And you have to cry if she is lost. When Lord Rām and Lakṣmaṇa came back, they found Sītā was not there. So, they cried, "Oh, Sīte, Sīte, Sīte!" Oh, He cried and cried! Why would the Lord cry? Because He is teaching; He is Maryādā Puruṣottama. He has come to teach us idealism. This is the role of an ideal husband. And if your wife is in danger, you have to rescue her.
So, He went to Laṅkā, killed Rāvaṇa, and rescued Sītā. And when He got Sītā, He ordered that illusory Sītā to enter into the fire to show whether her chastity was all right or not. Agni-parīkṣā, a test: "Enter into the fire." So that illusory Sītā entered into the fire, and the Fire God delivered the real Sītā to Lord Rām. That is the story. But people don't know this story. They said, "What is this? Rāvaṇa kidnapped Sītā? Rām cried? So, Lord Rām is in māyā, what to speak of ourselves?"
"Lord Rām cried? He is in māyā?" What are you saying? You are in māyā! They say they can't understand this thing, you see. Why will Rām cry? (laughs) Why would Rām run after an illusory deer? Didn't He know it? But this is what He teaches: an ideal husband, ideal king, everything ideal. That is the teaching.
When Mahāprabhu was traveling—six years He travelled after taking up sannyāsa—He was traveling in South India and He met many Rām-bhaktas, devotees of Lord Rām. Once, one devotee of Lord Rām—he was a brāhmaṇa, you see—invited the Lord for prasādam: "Please come and take prasādam in my house." When the Lord came, it was already afternoon, past 12:00, but he had not cooked. The Lord said, "You invited Me, yet you have not cooked food yet? What happened to you?" He was crying, shedding tears. "What happened to you? You have not cooked food?"
"Oh, what shall I say? Such a demon as Rāvaṇa kidnapped Sītā, Goddess Sītā, so I heard! Oh, unbearable pain is in my heart, I cannot tolerate this thing," he said, crying. "You have not cooked food?" Then he said, "Oh, what to do? Lakṣmaṇa had gone to the forest to collect some fruit, some śāk. He has not yet returned, so it is late. Lakṣmaṇa will come with some śāk, some fruit, then Sītā Devī will cook food. Now Sītā Devī is kidnapped, and Lakṣmaṇa has not returned. What shall I do? How can I cook?" He said like this. Then the Lord said, "What is that? Rāvaṇa kidnapped Sītā, and you are crying for it? How can a demon touch the energy of the Lord? The demon cannot touch it. Why are you crying?" This is in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, because this is tattva-vicāra. Who knows the tattva, what is real? All apparent consideration leads them to think, "Oh, Sītā Devī was kidnapped? Demon kidnapped her?" The Lord cried, Lord suffered so much. Yes! (laughs) They couldn't understand the tattva behind it, per se, behind the Lord's pastimes. (laughs)
Devotee: Sometimes people, they cite the example of Lord Rām
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.
Devotee: ... in a wrong way.
Gour Govinda Swami: Oh.
Devotee: They say, "Actually, now whatever the wife demands I should do and household life means serving the family."
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.
Devotee: And serving, service to the family is topmost.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.
Devotee: They misunderstand.
Gour Govinda Swami: Misunderstand, yes. But Lord Rām has taught us this thing. Of course, that is the duty of an ideal husband: to fulfill the demands of his wife. As an ideal husband, Lord Rām did it, but you have to face such difficulty; you have to cry for her. She will put you in such a situation that you have to cry for her. (laughs) Yes, definitely! That it is. Accepting a wife means you have to cry for her; she will put you in such a situation. (laughs) Yes, that's a fact.
Those who have already accepted a wife are experiencing this thing. I was a householder and I already experienced it. My experience is also the same. (laughs) Yes, that's a fact. Accepting a wife means welcoming many, many problems. Every day you will find so many problems are there in the house. (laughs) Every day! (laughs) Yes, that's a fact.
Devotee: Guru Mahārāj, in class this morning you, you made some statement about Yamunā Āchārya.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.
Devotee: I didn't really get it. I was, my mind was, uh, not fully concentrated (laughs) at the time. I sort of missed something.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.
Devotee: Cause I... Could you please explain that again, that—
Gour Govinda Swami: What is that, what I said? You tell me.
Devotee: Yeah, you promised this, that you made Arjuna make this promise that my devotee will be protected. He'll be protected. But he was taking this as you were trying to kick me away. I didn't, I didn't understand that.
Gour Govinda Swami: Because I'm not a devotee! I have no bhakti! In order to kick me out, You promised this thing. Do you promise this thing just to kick me?
Devotee: Uh-huh.
Gour Govinda Swami: You said you'll protect Your devotees, but I'm not a devotee, I have no bhakti. So how can You give me protection? You'll kick me away now; I'll be unprotected.
Devotee: So He only gives protection to the devotees.
Gour Govinda Swami: Devotees.
Devotee: He's thinking—
Gour Govinda Swami: Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg 9.31]. He says bhaktaḥ: "My devotees will be protected. You go out, and beating drums, you proclaim this thing, Kaunteya, son of Kuntī: Arjuna, My devotee is protected; I give him protection." Then Yāmunācārya says, "Why do You give such a promise? Why do You proclaim such a thing?"
Devotee: Uh-huh.
Gour Govinda Swami: "Is it only for me? I think it is for me, because I am not a devotee. So how can I get Your protection? In order to kick me out, just to leave me, You promise such a thing. I think so."
Devotee: It's a very unusual mood.
Gour Govinda Swami: Unusual mood, yes. "All are devotees but me; I am not a devotee." This is the mood: "All are Vaiṣṇavas but me. I am not a Vaiṣṇava, I am not a devotee. I have no bhakti at all. I'm dīna, I'm dīna." There's another quotation of Yāmunācārya also:
dīnabandhur iti nāma te smaran pātito 'py amṛtāyate bhaktavatsala itīdam ākulaṁ śrutvā hṛdayaṁ prakampate [Padyāvalī verse 64]
"Oh Lord, You are Dīna-bandhu. I heard this name, that You are Dīna-bandhu—friend of the most distressed. I am dīna, most distressed, so You are my friend. I have come to You because You are my friend and I'm the most distressed. But here I hear You are Bhakta-vatsala, You are very dear to Your devotees. Hearing this, my heart palpitates, suffering in my heart because I'm not a bhakta at all. I have no bhakti. How can You become my friend?" With such inspiration, such hope in my heart, I came here, but I heard this thing.
Devotee: It sounds, uh...
Gour Govinda Swami: Same thing.
Devotee: ... painful.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, very painful. "You are Bhakta-vatsala, but I am not a bhakta; I have no bhakti. I'm dīna, most degraded, most fallen, most wretched, most distressed. How can I approach You then? I have no bhakti."
Devotee: Yes.
Gour Govinda Swami: This is the mood: dīna.
janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrībhir edhamāna-madaḥ pumān naivārhaty abhidhātuṁ vai tvām akiñcana-gocaram [ŚB 1.8.26]
Yes, Kuntī Devī's prayer.
Devotee: So if I'm thinking I'm a devotee.
Gour Govinda Swami: That's very nice. Yet one thinks, "I'm not at all a devotee; I have no bhakti at all."
Devotee: But if I'm thinking I have some bhakti.
Gour Govinda Swami: No, one must think, "I am nothing. I have no bhakti at all. All are bhaktas, all are devotees, all are Vaiṣṇavas but me. Only I am not a devotee; I am not a Vaiṣṇava. All others are." Like this. This is the mood. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung in one song:
"āmi ta' vaiṣṇava", e-buddhi ha-ile, amānī nā haba āmi; pratiṣṭhāśā āsi', hṛdaya dūṣibe, ha-iba nirayagāmī. [Kṛpā Koro Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura Verse 2]
Do you follow me? "I am a Vaiṣṇava"—if this thing enters into my mind, I cannot give respect to one and all. I will demand respect, because I am a Vaiṣṇava. Amāninā mānadena, Mahāprabhu’s teaching:
tṛṇād api sunīcena taror iva sahiṣṇunā amāninā mānadena kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ
Don't demand respect; pay respect to one and all. That is amāninā mānadena. So if this thought enters into my mind, that I am a Vaiṣṇava, then I cannot give respect to one and all. I demand respect: "Hey, I am a Vaiṣṇava! Don't you know? I'm a devotee, a Vaiṣṇava! Bow down! Pay respect to me! Bow down here, you idiot, you don't know!" (laughing) I demand respect; then my heart will be polluted, hṛdaya dūṣibe. I'll run after name, fame, adoration, and prestige; then my heart will be polluted, my consciousness will be polluted. I'll go to hell, ha-iba nirayagāmī. He said like this.
So this is the mood: "I am not a Vaiṣṇava. I am not a bhakta. I have no bhakti. I have no Vaiṣṇavism, I'm not touched with it. I'm far, far away from it. All are Vaiṣṇavas, all are devotees but me." This is the mood.
Devotee: Mood.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. All mahājanas have said like this: Yāmunācārya, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Then you will really do hari-bhajana, and then you will really surrender. Then you will really become amāninā mānada. Think yourself lowest of the low: tṛṇād api sunīcena, much humbler than a blade of grass lying on the street; taror iva sahiṣṇunā, really become tolerant like a tree; then amāninā mānadena, pay respect to one and all, don't demand respect. That is hari-bhajana. Then you really do hari-bhajana, otherwise you cannot do hari-bhajana. Kavirāja Gosvāmī said to make a garland of this verse, put it around your neck, and then do hari-bhajana. All right? Thank you. Yes?
Devotee: Exactly how do we put it into practice? Although we can think about it, but it seems so difficult to put it into practice. How do we put it into practice?
Gour Govinda Swami: What difficulty is there?
Devotee: Into... thinking we're lower than the—
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, yes. Do you think it's theoretical saying?
Devotee: No, but I find it difficult to actually do it. (laughs)
Gour Govinda Swami: What difficulty? Tell me, what difficulty? Because your false ego is so great, you cannot surrender. You think yourself very great, so you cannot think this thing: that I am lowest of the low. That difficulty is because of your false ego only. One very nice verse—Yāmunācārya has very nice verses—there it says: “Oh, Lord, I completely dedicate myself at Your lotus feet, ātma-nikṣepa. I give up my false ego; I give this false ego at Your lotus feet. Take it away from me, take it away from me.” That one verse says, "False ego, please take it away from me." And one song is there, written by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, saying:
gurudeva! kṛpā-bindu diyā, karo' ei dāse, tṛṇāpekṣā ati hīna sakala-sahane, bala diyā karo', nija-māne spṛhā-hīna
Begging mercy at the lotus feet of Guru: "Please, just shower one drop of mercy on me and then I will become much humbler than a blade of grass. Then I will become tolerant as a tree; I can tolerate everything. And I'll never demand any respect, but rather give respect to one and all." Then I will be able to do it, otherwise I can't. That song is there: gurudeva! kṛpā-bindu diyā. Isn't it nice? A little mercy from guru!
This is the only difficulty with you: you never beg mercy. (laughs) So how can you win? Your false ego is so great, that is the only difficulty, nothing else. Isn't it, Sacinandana? Yes. We become so angry in the heart because we think, "What did he say? Don't you know who I am? I'll show you!" Oh my. (laughs) You see? (laughs) It's because you can't tolerate other people. All right, thank you.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes?
Devotee: Guru Mahārāj, I take your permission now.
Gour Govinda Swami: Oh, you're very nice.
Devotee: Thank you very much for your association.
Gour Govinda Swami: All right.
Devotee: I will come back maybe after one week or
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, come. Please come.
Devotee: Thank you.
Gour Govinda Swami: Anyhow, send that.
Devotee: Yes, yes. All right.
Gour Govinda Swami: I heard he has already collected a lot of money.
Devotee: Yes.
Gour Govinda Swami: In his account. He's in Malaysia.
Devotee: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Gour Govinda Swami: Haribol.
Devotee: Jai Guru.
Gour Govinda Swami: Haribol.
Devotee: Jai Guru.
Gour Govinda Swami: Haribol. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (car horns honking) Mm?
Devotee: When, when a nitya-siddha comes from the spiritual world to preach in the material world, how does he travel?
Gour Govinda Swami: How does he travel?
Devotee: Hmm
Gour Govinda Swami: (laughs)
Devotee: He doesn't need to come within the frame or anything like that?
Gour Govinda Swami: Anyhow, he may enter into anything, that is how. As Kṛṣṇa comes, how He comes, He can appear anywhere. Similarly, when a sādhu comes, he can be... because what he wills, Kṛṣṇa grants, or Kṛṣṇa sends him. Out of His causeless mercy, he may descend, or Kṛṣṇa will send him directly to go—either of the two. He may enter into one person, will accept his father and mother, enter into the father's semen, and then he will come out. Or he may come in that other way.
Devotee: So Kṛṣṇa can send him and, and he also, he also can decide to come also?
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. Either he will descend out of causeless mercy and Kṛṣṇa grants that... Because before the appearance of Kṛṣṇa or the Supreme Lord, His father and mother come.
Devotee: Mm-hmm.
Gour Govinda Swami: They come. Some other associates also come.
Prior to the coming of Gaurāṅga Mahāprabhu, His father and mother were there. Advaita Āchārya was there. Some devotees, His associates, were there. They were with Him. That is Kṛṣṇa’s līlā. Supreme Lord's transcendental līlā—we cannot conceive of it, and we cannot think of it in the line of conditioned souls coming and going. The conditioned soul enters through the womb of a mother and stays there. He gets so much pain. Even birth is a misery: to remain in the mother's womb is a very painful situation, like the biting of hundreds of scorpions at a time. It's so painful! But when a devotee comes, he never gets pain.
Devotee: Hmm.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, he never gets pain. It's not painful for him; it's for the conditioned soul. When a liberated soul comes, he never gets pain. So you should not think in that line.
Devotee: Hmm.
Gour Govinda Swami: Between the coming of a conditioned soul and the coming of a liberated soul, there's a difference. Definitely.
Devotee: So, a devotee's parents are very special.
Gour Govinda Swami: Definitely. One who has given birth to a Vaiṣṇava son, a devotee son, really she is a mother.
Devotee: Even if they're like gross karmīs? Some, some devotees' parents are like gross karmīs.
Gour Govinda Swami: What do you mean? Apparently they maybe like that. Like Hiraṇyakaśipu is a great demon, but he is the father of Prahlād. Isn't it? Father of Prahlād.
Devotee: Hmm.
Gour Govinda Swami: Such a great devotee! Prahlād’s mother, you see: jananī sama. His real mother is one who gives birth to a Vaiṣṇava son, a devotee son. Otherwise, sūkarī sama: if she produces non-devotee children, she is like a hog. A hog produces so many children, they eat all stool, then die. She cannot be said to be a mother. Sūkarī sama, he says: that is like a hog. A hog is producing and you produce—same thing. But a real mother is one who produces a devotee son, a Vaiṣṇava son or daughter. All right?
Devotee: Yes.
Gour Govinda Swami: She's a real mother. And carrying such a child in the womb is successful carriage: sārthaka. You are all sārthaka. Then what is the necessity otherwise?
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda's wife must have been a great soul also. Isn’t?
Gour Govinda Swami: Definitely, definitely.
Devotee: Even though apparently she gave him so much trouble.
Gour Govinda Swami: Definitely. You see, all these material troubles are blessings for the devotee.
Devotee: Hmm.
Gour Govinda Swami: Otherwise, how can he give up attachment?
Devotee: Yes. Blessing in disguise.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, blessing in disguise. How can you give up that attachment? How will you come out of this trap? If you never get such trouble, how will you become disgusted and think, "Let me get out of it"? Yes, that mostly takes place in the lives of all great men.
Devotee: Hmm.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, mostly that takes place. So, we can say blessing in disguise. That's a blessing.
Devotee: So he could come out to preach.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.
Devotee: Yes.
Gour Govinda Swami: He is such a well-wishing friend of all living entities. How can he remain limited within such a small circle? (laughs) If he does not get such trouble, how will he come out of it? So that's a blessing.
Devotee: Right.
Gour Govinda Swami: That's a blessing, and that takes place by the will of Kṛṣṇa, by Lord Nityānanda Prabhu's mercy. Family trouble is there? That's very good. Family trouble means, "Let this family enter into a wider family, the universal family." Why remain in such a limited, narrow material family? Kṛṣṇa's family is universal. Isn't it? (laughs) So many sons and daughters! Rather than being the father of a few sons and daughters—a material father—one becomes a spiritual father and mother.
Devotee: Hmm.
Gour Govinda Swami: So many sons and daughters throughout the world! So it's a big family. The whole world is the family.
Devotee: And we should not think that the wife was abandoned or... Kṛṣṇa was taking care also of the wives of the great devotees and
Gour Govinda Swami: Kṛṣṇa has said that: yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham.
ananyāś cintayanto māṁ ye janāḥ paryupāsate | teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham || [Bg 9.22]
They say, "Yoga-kṣemaṁ." I take care of maintaining those who are dependent on Him. Kṛṣṇa maintains the whole universe—Viśvambhara, in fact. Isn't it? Kṛṣṇa is Viśvambhara who maintains the whole universe, beginning from Brahmā to the tiny ant. Why would He not maintain such a devotee's family? And he has said in the ninth chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, "Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham." "I take charge of his family, those who are dependent on him whom he left with no more means of maintenance. And also, I take charge of giving him what he lacks"—that means the spiritual goal. That He has already said, and that's a fact. Yes.
No difficulty. He's completely dependent on Kṛṣṇa and he left his material family, home, everything for this purpose: for serving Kṛṣṇa and preaching His message throughout the world, entering into a big universal family. Kṛṣṇa takes care.
Devotee: That's right.
Gour Govinda Swami: No difficulty, no. Do you think His dependents will be helpless and face difficulty in their maintenance? No, never. If you analyze, you see many, many such instances of those who have left like this. No trouble is there; the dependents are well taken care of. Very well.
Devotee: Once you were saying that, uh, gṛhastha’s should earn the money.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.
tomāra kāryera tore uparjibo dhan tomāra saḿsāre-vyaya koribo vahan
Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said that, yes.
Devotee: Now, can also gṛhasthas do full-time preaching without caring about their own maintenance?
Gour Govinda Swami: He should leave that family. Why should those family members be dependent on him? He should not be the family master if family members will be dependent on him, because then he should take care of them. If he wants to preach throughout the world, he should come out of that family, leave that family. But remaining in that family, how can you do it? You can't do it. You cannot extensively tour and preach. Only in a limited sphere you can do it.
Devotee: In your own area.
Gour Govinda Swami: Area.
Devotee: But still one can do that in
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.
Devotee: ... one's own area?
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, with those who are close to you, attached to you, coming to you, whom you are acquainted with, like that.
Devotee: Okay. Well, go door to door in one's own, uh-
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.
Devotee: ... area.
Gour Govinda Swami: Area. Yes. I was citing the instance of Nārāyaṇa dās, Niśikānta. He was a gṛhastha. He was a professor there in Ravenshaw College in Cuttack. That old, very big, famous college there. He was a professor. At the time of Bhaktisiddhānta Saraswatī, he was a disciple of Bhaktisiddhānta Saraswatī. Whatever salary he got, on the first day of the month, he deposits everything with Bhaktisiddhānta; he never gives a single pie to his wife.
He was doing like that because it's the guru's money, the money of guru and Gaurāṅga. "It's not mine. I am the servant of guru and Gaurāṅga, so I'm earning money for them. It is their due." So, he gives everything to the last pie. So, Bhaktisiddhānta Saraswatī Ṭhākura used to send some money to his wife out of that. (laughs) He was doing like that. When he heard that Bhaktisiddhānta, his guru, was sending money to his wife, then he cautioned his wife, "Hey, this is guru's money. You should not spend it whimsically, extravagantly, unnecessarily. Keep proper account. I will examine the account."
Devotee: (laughs)
Gour Govinda Swami: It's guru's money. He cautioned his wife, "Even one pie should not be misutilized. Keep proper account. I will see, and if I find one pie unnecessarily spent, money will never come to you; it will stop. Supply will be stopped." (laughs) It is like that. Yes. A gṛhastha will earn money. Rather than anyone else, the gṛhastha will earn money; neither brahmacārī, vānaprastha, or sannyāsī will earn money. It is the gṛhastha’s duty to serve the brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, and vānaprasthas. You must serve. So the gṛhastha will earn money for that purpose.
tomāra saḿsāre-vyaya koribo vahan tomāra kāryera tore uparjibo dhan
Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, "Only to carry on the maintenance of your family, I will earn the money"—Kṛṣṇa’s family. A gṛhastha thinks, "My family is Kṛṣṇa’s family, nothing is mine. I am Kṛṣṇa’s servant, my wife is Kṛṣṇa’s maidservant, and my children are Kṛṣṇa’s family members. And I am the family head; Kṛṣṇa has entrusted this responsibility on my head to maintain His family." This is Kṛṣṇa’s family.
A gṛhastha Vaiṣṇava thinks like that. He never says, "my family," no. "I am a caretaker, I am taking care. Kṛṣṇa has entrusted this responsibility on me. I am His servant taking care of His family." Yes, this is the mood. What next? "I am the servant of Kṛṣṇa and all are servants of Kṛṣṇa, and this Vaiṣṇavī is said to be my wife"—establishing the relationship of husband and wife. She is also a great servant of Kṛṣṇa. She is meant for giving pleasure and enjoyment to Kṛṣṇa, not to me. That is what it is.
Devotee: So, in this woman is protected against other men, so might as well
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, yes. In this way, you'll be free from such sexual urge, both husband and wife. They should think in this way: "I'm meant for giving enjoyment to Kṛṣṇa." As you say, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's nīti. All women are mothers.
See our Vaiṣṇava philosophy. That other is a moral point, nīti-vākya, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita’s. Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy is that all women are maidservants of Kṛṣṇa who are meant for giving pleasure to Kṛṣṇa only, to be enjoyed by Kṛṣṇa only, not by me or anybody else. If you think in that way, then such sexual excitement or sexual urge will not come to you, because she belongs to Kṛṣṇa. She is meant for Kṛṣṇa’s enjoyment, not for my enjoyment. This is our Vaiṣṇava philosophy, the Vaiṣṇava way of thought. She is a Vaiṣṇavī.
Devotee: So one sees, why should I trespass on Kṛṣṇa's property?
Gour Govinda Swami: Ah, yes! That’s an offense. But when you have established the relationship of husband and wife, it is based on the relationship with Kṛṣṇa: sei to’ sambandhe sabe āmāra. Everything is related to Kṛṣṇa; I am related to Kṛṣṇa and she is related to Kṛṣṇa. So, our husband-and-wife relationship, or any material relationship, should be based on the relationship with Kṛṣṇa as the chief relationship. That’s the proper, real relationship. So, there will be no trouble at all, no problem, no trouble.
Husband should understand this thing and wife should understand this thing, both of them. Otherwise, there will be trouble. When the husband is engaged in loving service of Kṛṣṇa, the wife should be happy: "Yes, he is giving enjoyment to Kṛṣṇa." She should never raise any complaint or create any trouble, but rather give inspiration, help him to serve more and bring happiness and pleasure to Kṛṣṇa. She thinks, "That’s very good; even if I cannot render such service, I cannot give such happiness to Kṛṣṇa." She feels like that. Or the other way: if the wife is engaged in such service, the husband should not feel envious, but rather encourage her.
So, there will be no trouble. Otherwise, if you establish a material relationship, there will be trouble, quarreling, dissensions, so many things! Every moment you will die. It will be a hellish atmosphere; no Vaikuṇṭha atmosphere will be there. Yes, lack of ….
So, when you are establishing the relationship of husband and wife, both of you should be engaged in loving service of Kṛṣṇa, giving enjoyment, pleasure, and happiness to Kṛṣṇa only.
hṛṣīkeṣeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.1.12)]
That means all your senses should be engaged in loving service of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, hṛṣīkeśa means senses and Hṛṣīkeśa is another name of Kṛṣṇa, controller of mind and senses. Hṛṣīkeṣeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam.
So only the gṛhasthas, those who are a married couple, engage their genitals in Kṛṣṇa’s service. Brahmacārīs, vānaprasthas, and sannyāsīs never utilize that sense; they utilize other senses. Gṛhastha means he utilizes all these senses, including the genitals, by producing a Kṛṣṇa conscious child or son. To give a member to Kṛṣṇa’s family: thereby they serve Kṛṣṇa through that sense organ. Otherwise, why utilize that sense organ if you can’t serve Kṛṣṇa?
Only gṛhasthas are meant for it; others are not meant for it. Evaṁ vyavāyaḥ prajayā na ratyā [ŚB 11.5.13], the Bhāgavatam says this thing. And thereby it teaches the whole world how to conduct Kṛṣṇa’s family: Kṛṣṇa-saṁsāra. Don’t do māyā-saṁsāra—that is all troublesome, all miserable, all problematic. Kṛṣṇa’s saṁsāra means all-pleasurable, all-happiness, all-blissful. Kṛṣṇa's saṁsāra He will teach. So, a Vaiṣṇava accepts saṁsāra for that; otherwise there is no need of accepting it. Yes, that’s the only thing to be done, nothing else. What is the need? Only to serve Kṛṣṇa.
Most persons cannot understand this thing. They marry in name only. They marry, but who will serve Kṛṣṇa? In what way will you serve Kṛṣṇa? You are a servant; you can serve alone or with the help of others who remain in the temple. What is the need of accepting a wife of the other sex? What is the need? This is only hypocrisy, nothing else. Only hypocrisy!
Marriage means producing progeny: vyavāyaḥ prajayā. For what purpose? Na ratyā—not for sexual enjoyment, but for Kṛṣṇa conscious children. Increasing the members of the Kṛṣṇa conscious society, giving such members to the Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Real children, not bastard children—otherwise they will be bastard children, varṇa-saṅkara: children produced out of your sexual appetite. They are bastard children, not real children. Real children are produced for the pleasure of Kṛṣṇa; then they are real children, devotees. That is only recommended, and only a gṛhastha can do that thing; nobody else—neither brahmacārī, vānaprastha, or sannyāsī—will do it.
Once Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Prabhupāda also said like that: "From my very birth I am a brahmacārī, still a brahmacārī, ājanma-brahmacārī, naiṣṭhika, very strict. But if needed, if I find there is dearth of Kṛṣṇa conscious children, I will produce children." He said like that: "I will produce children if needed." So we have gṛhasthas in our society; they have to produce such a child and give it to the society, so there will be no problem at all. Bastard children create problems; such devotee children never create problems. They are Kṛṣṇa conscious, like Prahlād Mahārāj from his very birth. While he was in his mother's womb, he was conscious; he got instructions in his mother's womb from Nārada. And in the seventh month of pregnancy, the child in the womb is conscious and offers prayer to the Supreme Lord there. So why cannot a child get instruction while in the mother's womb? Definitely! So, a pregnant woman should always associate with a sādhu and hear kṛṣṇa-kathā. That will be beneficial to her child; that is a must. Then that child will definitely be a Kṛṣṇa conscious child. Yes.
Devotees: Should gṛhastha’s have many children as they can have or just one.
Gour Govinda Swami: If you can maintain them nicely and take care of them nicely, yes, if you have that capacity, produce hundreds of children like Dhṛtarāṣṭra! If you have such capacity to maintain them nicely, take care of them nicely, and give them training in the proper line, this path of devotional service. Otherwise, why will you produce them? What is the necessity?
Devotee: Generally, the Indian families, they like to have big families, but western people like to have one or two.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. Big family means big problems, many problems. That's a fact. Small family means less problems. But if you have capacity to maintain ten children or twenty children, nicely give them training in the right path, the path of devotional service, take care of them—food, health, and education—then produce them for Kṛṣṇa, for Kṛṣṇa’s family. If you have no capacity, why produce? That is the most important thing. Children should be nicely taken care of.
This is heavy responsibility: gurudāyitva. Why produce children like animals, like dogs or hogs? They are uncared for, they will be bastard children, and they create so much nuisance and trouble in the society. So many problems are in the society because of these bastard children: no proper education, no Kṛṣṇa conscious training. For their own enjoyment they do anything. When their enjoyment is hampered or some impediment is there, they kill. Murder! All these problems are there because they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious.
And we have this natural family planning. Why artificial? Every state and country government faces so much trouble from increasing population; there is a problem of food. People are increasing, especially in India: scarcity of food, scarcity of employment. We cannot give them employment, housing, or food, so they are creating so many troubles and raising their voice against the government. Some are becoming—what do you say?
Devotee: Political Agitators. Agitators. Political.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, agitators.
Devotee: Rebellious.
Gour Govinda Swami: Rebellious. In Kashmir, in Punjab, in Assam, in Tamil—so many parts of India it is going on.
Devotee: Independentist, separatist.
Gour Govinda Swami: Independentist, separatist, rebellious. And what do you say? There is a nice word they are using.
Devotee: Terrorists.
Gour Govinda Swami: Terrorists, ātaṅkavādī. A Kṛṣṇa conscious child will never do such a thing. He knows everything is for Kṛṣṇa, nothing for one's own money. Gṛhasthas will produce such children and give them to society; then there will be a nice Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Only a gṛhastha will do such a thing, therefore it is a gṛhastha's duty. A Vaiṣṇava gṛhastha will produce a child only for that purpose, otherwise no need of producing a child, no need of accepting a wife, no need of marriage. In that way he will serve Kṛṣṇa and give pleasure to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa will be happy: "Yes, he has given so many children to Me for My service; he has increased the members of My family." It depends on your capacity: if you can maintain them nicely, take care of them nicely. Otherwise, why will you produce?
Devotee: Some devotees, they think, "I have many children and Kṛṣṇa will maintain."
Gour Govinda Swami: Why say, "Kṛṣṇa will maintain"? Factually, Kṛṣṇa is maintaining the whole universe—He is Viśvambhara. That's a fact. But as a father and mother, it is your responsibility to maintain these children: give them nice training, take care of their health, food, clothing, and education in the line of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then they will come out as nice servants of Kṛṣṇa. If you cannot do that, why will you produce? Because you are producing for your own sexual enjoyment!
And we have this strict regulative principle: husband and wife will meet only once a month, only for the purpose of procreation, at the proper time for pregnancy. Once a month, finished. Garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is there. That auspicious day will be fixed. On that day, both husband and wife will chant a prescribed number of rounds—some say 50, some say 64—and only think of Lord Kṛṣṇa.
In the morning they will do a fire sacrifice, havana. They will do hari-saṅkīrtana and feed some Vaiṣṇavas prasādam. And they will read and hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, only thinking of Kṛṣṇa; no other thought will be there. The whole day will be spent in that way.
And at night, at the proper auspicious moment—that time is niṣeka in the pañjikā, calendar—the husband will utter the mantra from the Ṛg Veda and give semen. Then the child will be conceived. This is our Garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, the beginning of the ten purificatory saṁskāras.
Once there is pregnancy, there is no need of cohabitation. Finished! For one year it is automatically stopped: there is pregnancy, no menstruation, so it is automatically stopped. This is the natural way of family planning.
After the child is produced, then after one year when the menstruation period comes, if both husband and wife think of producing another child, they will approach Guru and take permission. If Guru says, "Yes, produce," then you produce; if Guru says, "No," you do not. We have such strict regulation; you cannot do it whimsically. It is such a nice process: then the child produced must be a devotee. From the very beginning that consciousness is there in both husband and wife. The child in the womb hears kīrtana and bhāgavata-kathā. From his very inception, the child is in such an atmosphere.
So, this material sphere is facing so much problems of overpopulation. As for example in China: overpopulation means they have no land to provide housing, so they live in boats.
Devotee: So much abortion.
Gour Govinda Swami: So much abortion, yes, due to overpopulation. So the government is making laws: free abortion, planning artificial contraceptive methods. They adopt them because they cannot check themselves; they cannot tolerate this sexual urge, so they adopt artificial contraceptive methods to prevent pregnancy. These are all sinful activities! If you do sinful activities, what is the consequence? You will go to hell and suffer there. But we have such a natural method, the Kṛṣṇa conscious way. No problem!
Devotee: I have one question. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta, when he was preaching in Calcutta, Subhash Chandra Bose, he went to see him, nationalistic leader, and he was telling, "Oh Mahārāja, if you preach like that, you are attracting all the intelligentsia and go. So who will be left for fighting against the Britishers?"
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.
Devotee: At that point Śrīla Bhakti siddhānta said, "Do you think that everyone will be attracted? No. Only a few will come." But on the other hand, we say this will spread all over the world like flood. So it seems that those two things are apparently contradictory somewhere.
Gour Govinda Swami: Unless one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, how will he be attracted? From his very birth Prahlāda was attracted, Dhruva was attracted; why are others not attracted? This is the material world, illusory energy; all are made up of illusory energy. They have forgotten their own soul; they are attracted to the illusion, the māyā witch. Very fortunate souls only are attracted, that's a fact. But we preach because we want everybody to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. When this whole world becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, it will never be a material world again; it will be elevated to the Vaikuṇṭha planet. A Vaiṣṇava thinks in such a way: why should there be such suffering and misery? Let there be eternal enjoyment and happiness in Vaikuṇṭha. We want to transform it into Vaikuṇṭha, so we preach. But that's a fact: not everybody is attracted, only very few, very rare.
Devotee: Only a few post graduates, there are only a few post graduates, in the society of students.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, because this material world gives you an opportunity to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, as the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas say. Māyā gives you lashes. Māyā is Kṛṣṇa-dāsī; she gives you severe lashes unless you turn your face towards Kṛṣṇa. If you turn your face towards Kṛṣṇa, then you will be free from Māyā's lashes. So in that sense, this material world gives you an opportunity to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, in an indirect way.
Māyā gives you so much lashes so that you kick Māyā and go to Kṛṣṇa. Turn your face towards Kṛṣṇa, not to Māyā anymore! You should talk to Māyā: "Chalo Māyā, you witch, get out!" Kicking Māyā behind, one looks at Kṛṣṇa:
pechane rākhe kṛṣṇa, pāne cāhe | bhajite bhajite kṛṣṇa pāda-padma pāya
Then one accepts Guru and does bhajana, and approaches Kṛṣṇa's pada-padma. Indirectly, this material world gives you such opportunity to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, the ācāryas say.
Devotee: That's Māyā's service, her service.
Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, that's Māyā's service. My Guru Mahārāj says Māyā is doing a thankless job, isn't it? Prabhupāda has said Māyā is doing a thankless job. It's a very good job: she gives you lashes, thereby indirectly telling you, "Be Kṛṣṇa conscious, be free from my lashes!" Thank you, thank you, chalo.